OGL

[Tim_Fox1002]

Sorry to raise this horrible topic. I am worried that Hasbro's revisions to OGL 1a will affect this game among other great OSRs. Any thoughts anyone? Scott?

[Adminenkainen]

I'm monitoring the situation. In a worst case scenario, I would have to pull some, but not all, of my books and consider whether to re-write passages or pull the titles from circulation. Some books, like Supplement III, rely heavily on the OGL material, while other books don't so much.

[order99]

It was my understanding that the OGL, once created, cannot be withdrawn, and new OGLs or liscences can only be applied to new material. What legal shennanigans is Hasbro attempting to short-circuit standard legal jurisprudence/precedent? Because it's really, really hard to claw back Proprietary Rights once you've released it Open Source:

www.geeknative.com/149573/ogl-architect/

comicbook.com/gaming/news/dungeons-dragons-one-dnd-ogl-explained/


From what I can gather, any revisions to the existing OGL would only apply to the new OneD&D-and with that system being backwards-compatible with 5E, I don't think that Hasbro will actually get what they think they're getting.

And if somehow they do...remember the restrictive D&D 4E liscense, a bunch of 3E folks up in arms and Paizo coming up with Pathfinder under OGL 1.0? Oops. And how by the Twin Beards of Gygax and Arneson are they going to re-capture Basic D&D and AD&D once OSRIC showed that mere numbers cannot be Copyrighted?

So...what parts of Supplement III are you concerned about?

[Adminenkainen]

Supplement III stands out in my memory as having a lot of material cut and pasted from the d20 SRD. Even as late as the Mobster Manual, though, there is still bits and pieces of d20 SRD text mixed throughout.

[order99]

So...

"Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License, the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content."

"Updating the License: Wizards or its designated Agents may publish updated versions of this License. You may use any authorized version of this License to copy, modify and distribute any Open Game Content originally distributed under any version of this License."

  So how the heck does the Hasbro legal team cancel a perpetual license? And how do they force one to scrap 1.0 and use 1.1 when 1.0 allows you to use the updated...or original versions? 

 In order to enforce the strictures of 1.1, decades of legal precedent would have to be tossed out the window. This can happen, but not easily, and not without gigantic consequences.

 The literally first time legal action was mentioned re the OGL 1.0 was when creator Stuart Marshall used its freedom to create OSRIC-the creation of an "AD&D-alike" that folk could use their old Adventures and materials for without purchasing rare antique hardcovers and spending a small fortune.

 Summation-Mr. Marshall got a Cease and Desist, contacted his barrister for advice, and wrote WOTC a polite, detailed explanation of why the company had no authority over OSRIC or its creator. The Hasbro legal team took one look at the document-and withdrew the C&D.  This was literally the foundation upon which the OSR movement began.

 I would definitely recommend contacting Mr. Marshall for further info and advice. Contact info is near the bottom of the Index page:

www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/index.html

 

[Adminenkainen]

Ah, but WotC has deeper pockets and more aggressive lawyers now, thanks to Hasbro. A lot of people are anticipating a strategy of WotC/Hasbro going after us, knowing they would lose in court, but forcing us out of business because what small presses have the budget to fight litigation? It will be like when DC sued Fawcett over Captain Marvel, not because they really believed he infringed on their Superman trademark, but to stop the competition.

[Adminenkainen]

I have four pages done in a third H&H submission to Big Bang Adventures , and finally started working on what might have been Supplement VI: Trophy Case. But I'm going to put all of it on hold for now while we wait this out.

[Adminenkainen]

It's, I think, likely that Hasbro will only be targetting companies making $500,000+ and allow the rest of us to glide under their Radar. I would hate to bet on that, though...

Also - who on Earth is making $500,000+ publishing game material??

[Adminenkainen]

Another thing I was lying awake this morning thinking about...

Fifteen years. I have invested the past 15 years of my life to this love letter to my favorite role-playing game. Maybe that's a long enough letter...

[Tim_Fox1002]

I'm just saying don't throw in the towel just yet. Let's see what happens first. You can still game no matter what happens.

[order99]

Worst case scenario:

In which everybody caves in to the 800 pound Gorilla of Hasbro despite total lack of legal merit and give up, Judges inexplicably ignore all previous jurisprudence and rule for WOTC when someone does fight, and somehow the gaming company fails to completely and utterly shatter against the legal bulwarks of both Great Britain and the European Commonwealth (who seldom tolerate these sorts of legal shenanigans regardless of how rich you are)-highly improbable IMHO, but let's go with it...

-Palladium Games made a 'D&D-alike' for decades before the OGL, never shut down or threatened.They literally admitted that the game started off as AD&D Houserules, TSR didn't care.

-Arduin Rules, same basket as Palladium. No C&D.

-Golden Heroes/Codename:Spandex, never threatened.

-Villains and Vigilantes, both 1st and 2nd Editions,never threatened.

-Pendragon by Chaosium, and the Runequest/Basic systems, directly D&D-inspired originally. Never attacked.

-Tri-Tac systems such as Stalking the Night Fantastic...basicly an 'advanced' AD&D. Never challenged.

All of the above used mechanics that were incredibly similar to D&D-and TSR, who issued C&D's to D&D fan sites-never touched them.

Now think about all of the OSR games inspired by the OGL 1.0-but could throw out the entire thing and ignore it because the system bears almost no resemblance to D20:

-Into the Odd
-Dozens of Powered by the Apocalypse games
-Knave and its many children
-Maze Rats and its progeny
-Braunstein and its cousins
-Pits & Perils
-Mork Borg (and wouldn't it be Awesome to see Hasbro get mired in the Netherlands legal system?).

Worst case? Hasbro Wins and the OSR goes on without them-and the Backlash ruins them for old and new fans alike. The goose not only no longer produces Golden Eggs, but rises from its grave as an Undead horror, infects all the livestock and tramples the entire farm flat. 

Best case? A few brave souls tell WOTC to 'eff themselves and dare to challenge them while pointing out the lack of Merit, the Legal Team does a cost-benefit analysis and concedes the point...back when OSRIC challenged WOTC, Stuart Marshall simply sent a polite missive that pointed out A) the complete and utter lack of merit to the C&D B)The fact that actual systems and polyhedral dice can't be copyrighted and C) that they would have to face him on British soil. It turns out that the Hasbro Legal Team didn't even know about the C&D (or so they claimed) and the matter was dropped.

The sad knews it that here in the USA, anyone can sue anyone for anything. Personally, i'd keep doing what you want until (and IF) you get an official C&D, and decide what to do then. Options incude-withdrawing the product, throwing caution to the winds and demanding a Court Date-or redesigning the system to be less D&D-like as you mentioned. Heck, we don't know if Hasbro is even going to follow through yet, this tomfoolery might just be a morally bankrupt 'Focus Test'...

In the event you wish to go for option Three though, I think that a simple 'Cut-and Replace' of Terms on the Source Document might be all that you need to make it less palatable to Hasbro:

STR=Might
DEX=Agility
CON=Vitality
INT=Wits
WIS=Cunning
CHA= Elan

Melee= Close Combat(CC)
Missle= Ranged Combat(RC)
AC= Defense Rating(DR)
Hit Points= Grit
Hit Dice= Hero Dice(HD)
Race= Origin (I do that already just because it feels more 'comic book')
Class= Calling
Level= Rank
Experience Points= Glory
Fighter= Adventurer
Magic-User=Spellcaster

I already jury-rigged your RAW to use only D20's and D6's (1D3, 1D6-1, 1D6, 1D6+1, 2D6-1, 2D6, 2D6+2 for 1D3, 1D4, 1D6, 1D8, 1D10, 1D12, 2D8-it's 'close enough for Horseshoes and Hand Grenades'), with 3D6, 4D6, 5D6 for the rest. Of course, Polyhedrals can't be Copyrighted either...

***

The truth is Scott, that you have nothing to lose. Hasbro can sue you over a D12 Dice-Pool system with Superpowers based on a Tarot reading if they choose, lack of legal merit or no. And if you really think that 15 years is long enough for your Love Letter to the Golden Age of Comics-it's your call. There are Other Worlds Than These and maybe you want to try some...but if you still thrill to Pulp Action and Four-color goodness, create as you will-because Hasbro may never make good on this. And if they do, and you receive a Cease and Desist, the option to shrug your shoulders, comply and turn off the lights is always there...

...regardless of your future decisions-Thanks for 15 years of Hideouts & Hoodlums. I've still got my copies, and if Hasbro tries to break into my home to take them it's gonna get all Die Hard in here, Oh Yeah...

[Tim_Fox1002]

Matt Finch's Youtube chat suggests that games like Hideouts & Hoodlums are not of interest to Wizards of the Coast. He says Wizards of the Coast is namely going after 3rd party publishers that "stole" their profits. So, chances are, nothing will happen to Hideouts & Hoodlums.

See: www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HMtk9SAjUI

[Adminenkainen]

Thanks, Order.

One thing we haven't talked about yet is the part of the new OGL that I think bothers me the most (though people making $750,000 is a close second). Apparently, Hasbro plans to contend that anything made with the OGL belongs to them and they can claim it anytime they want. That doesn't sit well with me, that they might try to take the baby I've been raising for 15 years.

There's also this - www.tenkarstavern.com/2023/01/monsters-monsters-has-licensing.html - and the allure of producing H&H: Monsters Edition...

[Tim_Fox1002]

You can go with Matt Finch's rewritten OGL for S&W whenever that comes out. He said there was not much rewriting to do.

[order99]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZQJQYqhAgY

A nice and concise breakdown of Trademark vs. Copyright, enforceability of the documentation, and Product Identity vs. Mechanics, etc-also, how the OGL gave permission to use what you probably didn't even need permission to use...

So...how much of Hideouts and Hoodlums uses Product ID? Mechanics don't count, only the exact wording of the SRD. Also, recent clarifications indicate that past products under the OGL 1.0 won't be effected and that Hasbro has no ownership of other creator's works. How much of this is a response to Creator and fan Pushback and how much was just a 'communications error'    is for the moment unclear. If the original intent of Hasbro was to do any of the above-well, it looks like the 800lb Gorrilla just got shouted down by the rest of the Zoo exhibits, the zookeepers and the spectators...

 So, as far as the content of Hideouts and Hoodlums:

 Hasbro IP-are there any bits lifted, word for word, from the OGL 1.0 SRD in the game itself? Easily changed if so...and again, the mechanics don't count, and terms like Armor Class, Hit Points, Level, Hit Dice etc made it to non-SRD games ages ago.

 Trademark violations? Major Magus and other Fawcett patstices are completely your own, and nearly all the rest come from old Public Domain comic books and pulps. And mechanics are not IP.

 I honestly don't see why you couldn't release all of your new stuff over the various "We'll make our own SRD-with Blackjack and Hookers!"  documents that we are about to be flooded with from various creators, or even good old Creative Commons...

  In short, the Mountain might be a molehill after all-and if the gamer response is to be believed, anybody Hasbro does go after without cause might just be one "HEY RUBE!" away from having a howling mob of pitchfork-waving, torch-bearing and Patreon-supporting allies nearby...